Gordon Draper (00:03):
Hi, I am Gordon Draper and I'm the host of the Cyber Consulting Room Podcast. Folks, welcome back to the cyber consulting room where we continue our journey into the dynamic world of cybersecurity and consulting. In today's episode, we have the distinct pleasure of hosting a remarkable guest, Jane Franklin. Jane is not your typical tech and cybersecurity leader. She's an award-winning trailblazer who has achieved extraordinary success against the odds from building her own seven figure global business As a single mother within just two years to turning around failing companies, Jane's journey is nothing short of inspiring. With over two decades of experience in the cyber industry, Jane has held senior executive roles, actively contributed to organisations like OWASP Crest and Cyber Essentials, and work with some of the world's biggest brands to drive rapid revenue growth. Her ability to bridge the gap between business strategy and technical cyber needs has made her a force to be reckoned with.

Gordon Draper (01:04):
Jane is a passionate advocate for gender diversity in male dominated industries, and she has authored an Amazon bestseller "IN security" created initiatives like the IN Security Movement, code of Conduct, and the source to empower women and businesses that value them. Today, she sits on the board of Black Hat Exec and SC Magazine judges numerous awards worldwide and is a sought after speaker, trainer, and influencer for major brands. Jane's mission-driven approach aligns with the United Nations sustainable development goals, and she's dedicated to making women in security the standard, not the exception. Her expertise is in high demand and she shares it with forward thinking companies, governments, and global events. In this episode, we'll have the privilege of exploring Jane Franklin's journey, her insights into cybersecurity and her unwavering commitment to empowering women in the field. So get ready for an enlightening and empowering conversation with Jane Franklin on the Cyber Consulting Room. I'd like to thank Jane for joining me today, and I look forward to having a chat with you.

Jane Frankland (02:15):
Amazing. Thank you so much, Gordon. I'm so happy to be here.

Gordon Draper (02:18):
We're going to go through some of the questions associated with a bit about yourself and how did you get started in cybersecurity and information security?

Jane Frankland (02:26):
Yeah, well, my journey into cyber is fairly unique. I've not actually met anyone who's got into the industry like me, so my background is actually in textile design, so woven textile design, art, and design. Still identify as a designer, but after graduating, I fell pregnant, needed to change my career, met someone, fell in love, ended up starting a business with him. So literally I went from art and design, having an agent selling work all around the world, and to art galleries like Christie's, to starting an information security consultancy maybe 25 years ago.

Gordon Draper (03:06):
I was going to say, when was that? Was That in the nineties?

Jane Frankland (03:08):
Yeah, late nineties, 1997. Went in with no knowledge of technology, but what interested me at the time was ai, which is fascinating now, AI or security, and I knew that AI was too early to really build a business based on that security was feasible and I thought it sounded quite interesting. I thought it sounded a little bit like James Bond, and I cringe saying that, and every time I'm asked about this, I say the same thing. But yeah, that's kind of how I got started in cybersecurity and I had an ambition to go and build a company within a few years and sell it for however many million, go back to my art and design and to continue doing the work I loved and was talented at.

Gordon Draper (03:56):
You mentioned that you had considered it like a spy. Were you doing penetration testing or were you jumping fences?

Jane Frankland (04:04):
I mean, right at the very beginning, we didn't do pen testing because I just don't think it was really done. I mean, literally phones, mobile phones, cell phones were new to the market. Companies didn't even have websites, so it was really about firewalls, content management solutions. At the same time as we focused on security, largely firewalls, we were also doing high availability servers, and then when the market kind of started to expand and I could see it moving in a direction, and that's when we specialised in penetration testing or security assessments as we call them,

Gordon Draper (04:40):
More assessments. Hadn't Been called that yet.

Jane Frankland (04:42):
This is, yeah, I mean, pen testing was part of a security assessment, but the language changed. So having that consultancy, the IT security consultancy or information security consultancy, right in the late nineties, it operated in that manner for about five years, and then we specialised so early two thousands, that was when we kind of went pure pen testing and specialised in that.

Gordon Draper (05:08):
Well, one of my next question was going to be, did you always want to be a cybersecurity expert? I think you answered that,

Jane Frankland (05:14):
Didn't even know about it. I think knowing what I know now, I think it would've been quite good fun to be a spy, A spy or just to really get involved in more of the social engineering side of things or maybe pen testing as a practitioner. So my job has always really been to lead to build companies to really focus on that sales, marketing, operational side of things. So yeah, I think going back it might've been fun to do that.

Gordon Draper (05:43):
So you've mentioned that you've done a degree in textiles. Have you done many industry certifications? No, not at all. Not at all.

Jane Frankland (05:51):
I don't need to,

Gordon Draper (05:52):
No,

Jane Frankland (05:52):
I've never needed to do that. The companies that I've built have needed to be certified, so the certifications play a part. The consultants that I employed or worked with, some of those had certifications, but certainly back in the day of pen testing, it was still early days. So a lot of them weren't certified.

Gordon Draper (06:13):
They hadn't been built yet.

Jane Frankland (06:14):
Yeah, I mean absolutely. They were really highly skilled. These were elite pen testers, and many of them now either have their own companies or are in CISO roles. So yeah, it just didn't really exist. You had to prove your ability through tests and things like that rather than certifications.

Gordon Draper (06:36):
Have you done consulting since

Jane Frankland (06:37):
Consulting company?

Gordon Draper (06:38):
that pentesting company?

Jane Frankland (06:39):
No, I mean I have done consulting. I am a consultant. I haven't built a consultancy like that. I mean, the company that I have now, really we focus on women and businesses who value women. Since writing my book, IN Security, we're kind of pivoting slightly. So if you were to go to my website, you would see that I focus on brand elevation, women and leadership. So those are the three kind of areas. So for me it's really about helping individuals and companies achieve their objectives and go beyond mediocre results. My career is very much a portfolio career right now.

Gordon Draper (07:22):
When you were running the leadership for the pen testing consultancy, did you end up hiring many people and what challenges did you come across in hiring People For the right position?

Jane Frankland (07:35):
I don't really remember challenges in regard to hiring people actually, because what we did right at the very beginning when I started that company, I really focused on the end goal. I had a really strong vision of how I wanted it to be, and I was always able to articulate that. So the company was built, even though it was a small company to be a massive company. So we had things like intranets there. We had all the policies, procedures, documentation. So if anything happened to myself and my business partner, the company could continue. And what happened was because we were really innovative, we knew our unique selling propositions, we knew what made us different, who our ideal clients were, why they would buy from us, why would they pay top dollar to come and get a service from us, and how we just outshone in regard to our competition because we knew all of those things and we were doing things that were really leading edge.

Jane Frankland (08:32):
So things like research, we gave our consultants like 25% research time. No other company was doing that at that time. We knew that and treated our consultants as being our most important asset. They really are. The saying is people are your greatest asset is true. Treat your people really well. Challenge them and support them in equal doses and make sure you say thank you, you'll get that loyalty. And because of that, because we gave them this great environment to do their best work to be the best pen testing company out in the marketplace globally, then they just went and told their friends and said, look, it's a great company to come and work. Let's see if we can get you a job too. So when more work came in, we expanded and we had just a lot of them inviting their friends to come and work with us. All the word would get round. This was a great company to come and work at. And the other thing that we did at the time, which no other company did, which happened as a bit of an accident, was we allowed our consultants to work from wherever they wanted to. All those pentesters at that time were hearing about this and kind of going, oh my God, this is amazing. Can we come and work there?

Jane Frankland (09:40):
And so yeah, those two things were really innovative and unique at that time. Now they're not obviously work from anywhere, especially since the pandemic is kind of the norm. But certainly way back then, no other company was doing it.

Gordon Draper (09:58):
which is interesting, I was just overhearing a recruiter talking today with a candidate that was saying, oh, but the business wants you to be in the office five days a week.

Gordon Draper (10:08):
That okay for you? The answer was No, I want to work hybrid. Or maybe two or three days a week, oh, well, this might not be suitable for you because we need them here for five days a week. That sort of mindset is really different. Organisations are pushing for Different Stages of hybrid, but five days a week is mind blowing. In this current environment,

Jane Frankland (10:31):
I think especially as we've proved we can do it since the pandemic, it's why that requirement is there for some of these companies who are having it as a requirement is beyond me. It's just like it's not necessary. Some people love to work with other people in an office and get that kind of interaction, and it's brilliant when you have that ideas like form, whether you're meeting at the water cooler or whether it's a case of going off for a cup of tea or coffee or beer or whatever it is, it's just like, it's great. It feels good. A lot of people really like that and really miss that. A lot of people don't. They are really quite happy getting their work done in a home environment.

Gordon Draper (11:12):
One of the diversity and inclusion facets of neurodiversity is that a lot of people are introverts and they have ADHD and they just don't want to deal with open plan office and the noise,

Jane Frankland (11:25):
It's distracting for them. It doesn't help them to do their work. I'm like that when I'm writing. I'm very industrious with my work. A lot of the time people ask me, well, how'd you get all that stuff done? I would not be able to do all of that if I was in an office environment. It would be too stimulating and distracting for me at home, even though somebody might be knocking at the door or the kids might be around or the dog could be wanting to go out, it's still less distracting for me. So it just enables me to get so much more work done. So the beauty of where we are now from that diversity aspect is we have these facilities, we have technology that can support us, whether that's at the PC level or whether it's at a connectivity level, at a security level even so we can do all of these things and work from anywhere that we want given that opportunity and given the parameters and the strong leadership around that to enable us to be able to work in that way.

Gordon Draper (12:26):
What is one of your most memorable experiences working with cybersecurity now? I know you've been more associated with leadership and you are here to discuss and represent Champion women in cyber. What is one of your memorable experiences Developing people and championing women in cyber?

Jane Frankland (12:48):
It would have to be writing a book. It was a complete accident, so I never planned to write a book about women in cyber. I had planned to write a book. I wanted to do that, but it was just an absolute accident how that happened, writing a blog and then having a conversation with a publisher who I knew and saying, I've done this, do you think I should do that? And her saying, you'd be crazy not to, even though it was nothing to do with my business. And I know that writing a book is great for establishing credibility. It's great as a part of a product ecosystem, leading clients' ideal clients to you, this has nothing to do with my business. And it wasn't even like a passion project. I mean even that whole term passion project wasn't really in play at that time. It was just something I felt compelled to do.

Jane Frankland (13:38):
And so doing that and then actually doing the work, doing the research, because there was so much research involved in that, whether that was doing my own research, so having fresh data or actually trawling through scientific articles, 200 page reports, whatever. Actually putting all of that together and the stories together, interviewing voices in the market like women and men and those in between gender. It was bringing all that together and really helping women to not feel alone and women to feel empowered or women to feel angry to do something about it. Certainly with that book, I had older women, particularly CISOs, saying, I can't read it late at night. I get too angry at the situation because it's still the situation now. And then younger women actually reading it and going feel really inspired. I feel really empowered and then obviously men reading it and kind of going, this is great.

Jane Frankland (14:35):
How can I do more or let me be an ambassador and give this to my daughters or to these women in the industry. So seeing all of that and bringing that at a time or when no one else is really doing that is probably one of my proudest moments. And then I think it is probably also stepping up, so having the courage to step up and do the speaking gigs and things like that, because that was my greatest fear. It's just like, I'm not a public speaker, I'm not doing that. And I was forced to do that because the book, so travel around the world speaking on stages and as an

Gordon Draper (15:12):
it's such a terrible Life.

Jane Frankland (15:13):
But the thing is, it's scary. It's scary. And also it requires an awful lot of coordination on the backend. So I'm a single parent, my kids, three kids sorting them out, the animals, dogs, cats, chickens and all sorts like that. Dealing with issues at school with maybe some of the kids or whatever was going on. It all sounds great and it all sounds really glamorous and staying in nice hotels and going to these nice places, that's all great meeting people, that's all great. There's such a lot of work that goes into making that happen, and that's just the coordination from a family perspective, let alone all of the other stuff.

Gordon Draper (15:53):
That was 2017?

Jane Frankland (15:55):
2017 was when the book was published. And actually, funnily enough, 

Gordon Draper (15:59):
How long did it take you to write it?

Jane Frankland (16:00):
Not that long. Actually, it was extended because I panicked about signing off on it because it was, I did launch that book as Kickstarter, so it's my first Kickstarter project. I got companies to sponsor it. So companies like Bank of America or Geo Security or BP, for me, I really, I got to a point where I was scared to actually sign off on it, even though I'd been blogging. It was such a big thing. It was just like, well, what if it's not good enough? What if they're not happy? That took as long. I kept going back and editing it, revising it, adding another Story. 

Gordon Draper (16:37):
I totally did the same thing.

Jane Frankland (16:38):
Yeah,

Gordon Draper (16:39):
I was like, I'm a perfectionist as it is.

Jane Frankland (16:41):
Yeah.

Gordon Draper (16:42):
Making sure that I've got everything finished. It's

Jane Frankland (16:44):
Exactly

Gordon Draper (16:45):
For that sort Of Work. I completely understand.

Gordon Draper (16:49):
Being In leadership nowadays, would you run a cybersecurity business again?

Jane Frankland (16:54):
I have no plans to run one. I dunno. I have no plans to run one at all, but yeah, who knows? We'll see what happens.

Gordon Draper (17:04):
Not even a CISO.

Jane Frankland (17:06):
No, I would definitely say never to that. Yeah, I would definitely say never to being a chief information security officer, it is like no, absolutely no. It's one hell of a stressful job. Yeah,

Gordon Draper (17:19):
We were just talking about mental health challenges associated with Cybersecurity And such a big problem with burnout, et cetera, and that's what hits on what I hear about CISOs. Definitely the sort of thing that effectively responsible for the entire network to the company. People do silly things on networks.

Jane Frankland (17:38):
They do. Yeah. I mean, the situation right now is, I heard, I think it was CyberMindz, actually a company founded in Australia, but are global. They've just launched in America, coming over to the UK and Europe. They were saying that the situation is so bad at the moment, it's overtaken frontline healthcare workers.

Gordon Draper (17:57):
Wow.

Jane Frankland (17:58):
That's how bad it is. And you speak to people in the industry and they're going to tell you that. And I wrote this blog recently, like pulling in information. So really collating information and resources where cybersecurity people or levels could go to for help. That blog has, just in terms of the engagement, has just, it's not gone viral. It's been one of the most highest performing blogs that I've ever written.

Gordon Draper (18:22):
Wow, you've

Jane Frankland (18:23):
Over the last, yeah,

Gordon Draper (18:25):
Yeah.

Jane Frankland (18:25):
Even higher than women, but then that's because it affects every single person

Gordon Draper (18:30):
Doesn't discriminate

Jane Frankland (18:32):
And because it's a problem.

Gordon Draper (18:33):
Oh, it's a big problem. So have you been going to conferences?

Jane Frankland (18:38):
The last one I went to actually was recently, and it was InfoSec. So in London, good old InfoSec that's been running for many, many years.

Gordon Draper (18:45):
And what have you seen or heard at conferences recently that really stands out?

Jane Frankland (18:51):
Nothing much actually. Nothing much. I mean, I typically only go to these conferences if I'm speaking.

Jane Frankland (18:59):
So If I've been engaged as a speaker, I see a lot of the same types of talks. For me, I'm not seeing anything really innovative. Nothing is really grabbing me. I think we need a bit of a shakeup with some of these experiences that we're having. I was interested to talk to some consultancies recently about lead generation and client attracting clients and just how they were going about it, and particularly their experience with security conferences from a sponsorship perspective and the value that they were getting out of them. It just seems to be minimal at the moment. So yeah, I think the industry is ready for a bit of a shakeup from a conference experience. I did some research on that when I was researching. It was only for women actually researching inappropriate behaviour, women's voices and what they wanted from a conference experience. This research went out to over 2,157 or whatever. It was like women worldwide

Gordon Draper (20:01):
Respondents

Jane Frankland (20:02):
In the Americas, in Europe, in Africa. So it was really broad with over a hundred women in each data set each location. But it was really interesting to see what kind of experiences they wanted at the conferences, and I think we need to do that again now. What is it that people want? The networking, the talks, the technical talks, the non-technical talks. Certainly being a board advisor at Black Hat Exec, from that executive perspective, you find out what people are wanting, what grabs them and what type of experience are they in search of. But I think we need to do more of that now so that we can meet the needs and deliver upon expectations.

Gordon Draper (20:45):
What's one thing in your consulting history that the consultancy did that you didn't expect, and what did you learn from it?

Jane Frankland (20:54):
There are loads of things. Mostly comes down to how they're treating their people. So it could be turning a blind eye to inappropriate behaviour or bullying behaviour. I heard of a managing director at a very large consultancy who had, I think there was something like 19 allegations against this guy. Nothing meaningful was done. HR were called in and that was about it. This organisation, leading consultancy definitely does have a problem with not having enough women at their organisation, but it's like if you've got behaviour like that, if

Gordon Draper (21:32):
You've got the misbehaving people, nothing's necessarily being done. That's not exactly supportive for people wanting to enter,

Jane Frankland (21:39):
But this is it. And they made a decision. They chose the MD was brilliant at bringing in business. revenue was great, and that was the decision. That was what they evaluated it on. Really.

Gordon Draper (21:50):
That's what they valued.

Jane Frankland (21:51):
That was the course. Yeah, exactly. So it's like it's no wonder you don't have enough women or they're coming in, but they're not staying. It's like if that's how you're treating them, if that's the experience, of course they're going to go, but you value money more than you do your people, and I've seen things like that. It's quite common. That's not great.

Gordon Draper (22:11):
What would you say would be a common myth about the cyber consulting industry?

Jane Frankland (22:17):
That's such a difficult question.

Gordon Draper (22:19):
They're all spies and jumping over fences.

Jane Frankland (22:21):
Yeah, I mean, yeah,

Gordon Draper (22:24):
In reality, they're just tapping on a keyboard in an hot cubicle.

Jane Frankland (22:27):
Yeah, I mean myths, everyone's really brainy. You've got to be super brain like work in the industry. It's like there are those thick people in the Industry,

Jane Frankland (22:35):
The hoodies, guys in hoodies. It's just like, no, you will get the guys in the hoodies. You'll get women in hoodies. You'll get old people in hoodies. 

Gordon Draper (22:44):
It doesn't Have to be just black hoodies either.

Jane Frankland (22:45):
No, exactly.

Gordon Draper (22:47):
If people want to wear a pink hoodie for as people like that colour then,

Jane Frankland (22:52):
Or you've got to have blue hair to work in this

Gordon Draper (22:55):
Industry,

Jane Frankland (22:57):
Tattoos or piercings or whatever, you've got to look a certain way. You can look however you want to in this industry. It's really diverse. You have people who are wearing the latest fashions, smartest suits, whatever it is really. I think cybersecurity is where there is a lot of non-conformity. So it's like that's where the square pegs who don't fit into the round holes can go. I think it's got something for everyone.

Gordon Draper (23:23):
The rebellious nature.

Jane Frankland (23:24):
Yeah, the rebellious nature. But also equally the complete opposite of that, the compliance side, because we have these different areas in security attack and defend the compliance side and then the creative, the innovative, let's break things. Let's find our way in the rule bending side of things. So it really is very, very, diverse and I think has something for everyone.

Gordon Draper (23:47):
I'd really like to hear. What is the most important lesson you've learned over your career?

Jane Frankland (23:53):
I trust no one. Zero trust. Yeah, take a zero trust approach. Oh my gosh. I dunno. It's like the most important. It's really hard. Hard. Yes. I have had a tendency to trust far more, and I've been burnt really badly by that.

Gordon Draper (24:10):
So that you don't trust necessarily as much these days.

Jane Frankland (24:12):
Yeah. Go back to your reference points, don't you?

Gordon Draper (24:16):
So what is one piece of advice you'd give to someone starting out in cybersecurity?

Jane Frankland (24:21):
Why can't your personal brand build your networks? Value relationships? So a lot of the time with people who want to come into cybersecurity, and especially women that can struggle despite the fact that you are here, we want women in the industry. There's a need for them. There are all these benefits associated with diversity, in particular gender diversity. Women can really struggle to come into this industry, and it's not a case of being at fault. There are things that they can do, however, to help themselves get into the industry. And one of those things is to really work on their network. So build your network, reach out to people, find out who the people are that you need to go and speak to. Develop that relationship. Don't go straight in with will you mentor me? Because you don't make the sale on the first connection. You've got to build that relationship.

Jane Frankland (25:15):
You need to give people a reason as to really why they would want to mentor you, and then give up their time to do that. Really value those relationships. Those relationships should remain with you for the whole of your life. So really treat people how you want to be treated. Value relationships, work on your relationships, build your network, and then really work on building yourself and becoming more visible and vocal out in the market so people know about you. People can find you. People know about your strengths, what inspires you, what you are passionate about.

Gordon Draper (25:53):
That's exactly what I recommend to the few people that I mentor, is Make sure that you build up a personal brand, get ready to start posting reasonably regularly on say LinkedIn. And one of the recommendations that I have, they're all like, oh, I don't want to have to put my resume on LinkedIn and make all these connections. It looks very in the first couple of stages where it's just starting out in LinkedIn, it's all very Quiet And lonely.

Jane Frankland (26:20):
It is. LinkedIn was originally built as a recruitment tool, and it's still heavily used as a recruitment tool. So the way that it's been built has been much more based on, it's your resume, it's your cv. The way that I use it. I like to tell stories, stories sell and facts tell, and there's a place for both. But for me, it's really about building those stories, building that intrigue, and I can do that through the summary on LinkedIn, on my profile and also with the blogs and posts.

Gordon Draper (26:49):
What underrated possibly frameworks or cybersecurity Leadership Tools would you say are indispensable?

Jane Frankland (26:59):
Cyber essentials! Cyber essentials!

Gordon Draper (27:02):
Is it on for all businesses?

Jane Frankland (27:04):
Yeah, it's getting the basic hygiene in place, isn't it? And there's a real place for Cyber Essentials, so it's not a bad place to start. I don't feel kind of like you can tell from my voice,

Gordon Draper (27:17):
Hey, you must do Cyber Essentials, ISO 27000 or NIST 800-53

Jane Frankland (27:24):
Completely. I was now launching Cyber Essentials. I wrote Crest Cyber Essentials Guide, but I still kind of come back to it. It's a really good starting point, and I think especially when you look at the issues that we have in the industry, if we did the basics really well, then I think it's something like 87% of challenges our issues would be solved. So we would be more secure. And every single industry out there, whether it's cyber or whether it's engineering or whether it's medicine or whatever it is, if you do the basics really well, you'll be top of your game. It's just that we don't, so I think cyber essentials could be a good place to start if you want something.

Gordon Draper (28:06):
Moving to potentially movies and books. Are you a fan of a hacker or cybersecurity movies or books, or is you see too much of it?

Jane Frankland (28:15):
I am intrigued by them, definitely. I'm always kind of like, oh, that might be quite good if it's a movie. But I've got to tell you about a book that I'm reading at the moment. It's by my friend FC, co-founder of Cygenta. He's just written a book, How do I Hack Banks? It's actually in my bag at the moment, and it's just great. It's grabbed me straight away and it's just a really interesting read. I'm only at the very beginning of that, but he's going into detail as to what it's like to do the social engineering aspect, to do the technical aspect, the physical aspect from a pen testing side of things, and he's got diagrams in there and stories and things like that. So that's the book that I'm Reading.

Gordon Draper (28:56):
Always a good fan of a good heist

Jane Frankland (28:59):
Story. Yeah, exactly. 

Gordon Draper (29:00):
A good Red team Report.

Jane Frankland (29:01):
Yeah, there's going to be loads of interesting aspects in that book. And I'm even reading it thinking, actually, do you know what? Maybe I'll get my daughter to read. Not that I want my kids to go into cyber. I mean none of them want to. And they've all been quite strong on that one. It's like there's no way in hell I'm going into that industry. But yeah, that's the book that I'm reading at the moment, and there are loads of, I'm thinking of a book that I'm in, which is All to Do, it's by Cyber Ventures. They've got a hundred cyber movies to watch, And which Ones are your favourite ones? So there are loads of examples

Gordon Draper (29:36):
In that they keep that updated recently,

Jane Frankland (29:38):
Regularly

Gordon Draper (29:38):
Too.

Jane Frankland (29:39):
Yeah,

Gordon Draper (29:40):
It's a good list.

Jane Frankland (29:41):
It's a good list. Loads and loads of books in that.

Gordon Draper (29:44):
Well, that's good because I was going to ask some ones that you would recommend if you could live anywhere else in the world. Anywhere in the world doesn't have to be here.

Jane Frankland (29:53):
Where

Gordon Draper (29:54):
In the world would you like to live?

Jane Frankland (29:56):
I think it would be either Italy or Greece.

Gordon Draper (30:01):
Nice Greek Islands. 

Jane Frankland (30:01):
Yeah. I mean,

Gordon Draper (30:03):
Yeah the islands and beaches Personally,

Jane Frankland (30:05):
Yeah, but I do like the seasons. So here in the UK we don't have great weather and we don't have consistency with the seasons. Sometimes it's just grey cloud and rain. Whereas Italy is beautiful. They have everything that's beautiful. It's like culture and art and wine and food and sunshine, and you've got diversity with the mountains and all of that stuff. So Italy, is like top. I also love Greece as well. I love the Greek islands. I love the people. They're family people. Same with Italians as well, family people. Family is really important to me, and it's just that embracement of welcome. That's what I like. So I think it would be either of those two places, but equally it could be anywhere else in Europe. I've travelled a lot in the world. I've lived all over the world, and I love seeing new places. I love travelling and seeing new places. It's just so enriching.

Gordon Draper (31:01):
First of all, I'd like to thank you very much for sharing your time with us on this podcast today.

Gordon Draper (31:06):
Where Can the listeners find you online?

Jane Frankland (31:09):
Well, they can go to my website, jane-frankland.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. Pretty much every single social media platform out there, but I would probably say go to my website or go to LinkedIn.

Gordon Draper (31:25):
As we wrap up this captivating episode of the cyber consulting room, I want to extend my heartfelt thanks to our remarkable guest, Jane Franklin, Jane, and your journey and insights have been truly inspiring and your dedication to advancing diversity and inclusion in the field of cybersecurity is commendable. To our fantastic listeners, we hope you've gained as much from this conversation as we have. If you've enjoyed today's episode and want to stay updated on the latest discussions with industry experts, be sure to hit that subscribe button and share the cyber consulting room with your network. Your support means the world to us, and we look forward to bringing you more thought provoking conversations in the future. Until next time, stay cyber aware and keep consulting.